Ending the Drug War.

[AbramIsaac]

Prohibition isn't the answer. Let's talk about the merits of regulation of drugs instead.

Here in the U.S. we have higher use of cannabis than they do in the Netherlands (percentage-wise). We also have higher rates of heroin use, whereas in the U.K. they have heroin injection clinics (where junkies can get shot up in a clean supervised environment) and they have lower rates of heroin use as well. Here in the U.S., healthcare professionals have a tough time just setting up needle exchange programs.

In the United States of America, we have 5% of the world population. We have 25% of the world's prison population though, and that's largely fueled by the drug war. Did you know that we have more people locked up in America for drug charges than all of western Europe has locked up for anything? According to the two most recent surveys by CASA, high schoolers say that it's easier to get pot than alcohol. Weird, you would think that dealers would ID their young customers...

Regulating marijuana like alcohol is a no-brainer. Health costs are lower across the board for cannabis, and black market sales account for a heavy revenue percentage for the Mexican cartels. Take that away, and you take away a lot of their money.

Thoughts? This is just some of the knowledge that came to mind, I'd be happy to elaborate as the discussion continues.

[Jiskefet]

Well I live in Holland and I have to say I really think our policy on marihuana is the best there is. By allowing it, keep in mind, we "allow" it, it is still illegal, our government is able to keep control over the trade, quality, and distribution of it plus is able to keep relyable statistics over the useage. Also, if a good is allowed it is less attractive for young people to use it, because it is less exiting and you wouldnt be as "tough" for having it.

Keep in mind the use of marihuana is proven less dangerous than the use of alcohol, wich is allowed because it is far more socially accepted.

When it comes to harddrugs, take away the cause of people wanting to use it: depression/misfortune/wrong environments for people without a job. When you create decent job opportunities for people without work, shelters for homeless, good social security, etc you will eventually solve a part of the drug problem. People who are allready addicted and not able or willing to go to a rehabilitation centre must have their shot of drugs from a source different than a drug dealer so it is not poisoned, but most of all they dont have to steal to get it and you dont support the dealers.

Well, thats just my toughts on it.

[AbramIsaac]

^

Well then, being from Holland, you have obviously witnessed the benefits of regulation and harm reduction programs. Definitely a better system than what we have going on. Fortunately, there is a constant push (especially as of late) for change in drug policy by a growing force of people.

Here's an interesting list of marijuana law reform movements for the upcoming year:

COLORADO: Last week the Commission on Criminal and Juvenile Justice recommended legislators to substantially reduce marijuana penalties so that the possession of up to four ounces of pot would classified as a petty offense. Offenses involving greater amounts of cannabis (up to 16 ounces) would be reduced to a misdemeanor. State Attorney General John Suthers told the Denver Post that he supports the Commission’s recommendations which, if enacted, would make Colorado’s pot possession laws among the most lenient in the nation.

RHODE ISLAND: A special nine-member Senate panel met for the first time this week to debate revising the state’s criminal marijuana policies. The panel’s chair, Democrat Sen. Joshua Miller, said that the task-force will primarily focus on the subject of decriminalization, but that members will also likely debate the merits of taxing a regulating the adult use of cannabis. The panel’s recommendations to the legislature are due on January 10, 2010. In 2009, Rhode Island’s legislature became only the second to approve legislation licensing the establishment of medical cannabis dispensaries.

WISCONSIN: Democrat Gov. Jim Doyle recently announced his support for legislation that seeks to make Wisconsin the fourteenth state to allow for the legal use of medical cannabis. Both the Assembly and the Senate Public Health Committees are scheduled to hear testimony in favor of the legislation, known as the Jacki Rickert Medical Marijuana Act, on Tuesday, December 15, 2009.

WASHINGTON: Incoming Seattle city attorney Peter Holmes announced this week that his office will no longer charge anyone with simple marijuana possession offenses. “We’re not going to bring any more (marijuana possession) charges,” he said. There are other more important, more pressing public safety matters in need of attention with the limited resources we have.” Holmes added that he supports legislation that stalled in 2009 that seeks to depenalize marijuana. Those proposals are expected to be heard by the legislature in 2010.

PENNSYLVANIA: Next month legislators will hold their first hearing — ever — on legalizing the use of medical cannabis. The House Committee on Health and Human Services will hear testimony on HB 1393, The Barry Busch Compassionate Use Medical Marijuana Act of 2009, on Wednesday, December 2, at 11am in Room 140 of the Main Capitol. Contact Philly NORML for further details.

ARKANSAS: Democrat Senator Randy Laverty announced this week that he is considering introducing legislation to lessen or eliminate criminal penalties for marijuana possession offenses. Legislators in several other states, including New Hampshire and Texas, are also expected to debate marijuana legalization proposals in 2010.

CALIFORNIA: In the coming months legislators are expected to hold additional hearings on Assembly Bill 390, the Marijuana Control, Regulation, and Education Act, which seeks to tax and regulate the commercial production and retail sale of cannabis to those age 21 or older. The California Assembly Committee on Public Safety is anticipated to vote on the measure by late January. The vote will mark the first time that California, or the legislature of any state, has voted on the issue of cannabis regulation in over three decades.

from NORML.ORG

[Jiskefet]

That is a nice list and I hope this can become true. I always have the feeling it is very difficult to really chance a policy on these kind of subjects because I have the image of the USA beiing very conservative and afraid of real change.

I hope for you people something will really change finally. Has this to do with the Obama government beiing more liberal on these subjects? Or are politics on these points up to the different states individually?

And Chet, why you think you beiing unfair? I disagree with you though, I think death penalty in common is something wrong. But that is off - topic.

[AbramIsaac]

It would boost our economy, help the government, & free up space in prison for the true criminals.

Totally agree on the marijuana issue.

I think being caught with hard drugs should be a death penalty, but I'm harsh and unfair on that subject.

I understand what you're saying about the hard drug thing, but it would only make a bad problem worse. I believe that by not ostracizing these people from society, we let society as a whole see that this issue--a health issue--is not a desirable one to have, making it less appealing. Don't encourage, but with heroin, addicts CAN live semi-normal lives with maintenance doses. This keeps the dealers out of business, because they can't compete with free. In turn, people aren't confronted by "pushers" and no doubt see heroin as a lifestyle that they don't really want to choose. Such is the case in the parts of Europe that have the injection centers. Their drug problem is not as bad, and as we know, prohibition seems to have only made our problem worse.

That is a nice list and I hope this can become true. I always have the feeling it is very difficult to really chance a policy on these kind of subjects because I have the image of the USA beiing very conservative and afraid of real change.

I hope for you people something will really change finally. Has this to do with the Obama government beiing more liberal on these subjects? Or are politics on these points up to the different states individually?

And Chet, why you think you beiing unfair? I disagree with you though, I think death penalty in common is something wrong.

Medical marijuana is advancing because of Obama. He has vowed and sent memos to the DOJ instructing them not to waste resources on prosecuting Medical Marijuana patients in states that allow medical marijuana. Push for decriminalization and medical pot initiatives all form at the state and local levels. Legalization is something that is starting to be discussed at the state level in a few states. Budget issues are a major help for the legalization movement. States and municipalities are becoming unable to pay for the costs of marijuana prohibition.

America is afraid of real change, but it starts on the west coast and from there things actually start to happen.

[Jiskefet]

Chet, I agree with you on disliking drug addicts, I think most people would.

Keep in mind tough that people dont become a drug addict because they want to. Without the drugs they would be perfectly normal, intelligent people contributing to society. Its the dealers who need to be punished hard. They make people addicted to make money off them after that.

So I think, if anyone, the drugsdealers should get the death penalty. Imo.

[Jiskefet]

Medical marijuana is advancing because of Obama. He has vowed and sent memos to the DOJ instructing them not to waste resources on prosecuting Medical Marijuana patients in states that allow medical marijuana. Push for decriminalization and medical pot initiatives all form at the state and local levels. Legalization is something that is starting to be discussed at the state level in a few states. Budget issues are a major help for the legalization movement. States and municipalities are becoming unable to pay for the costs of marijuana prohibition.

America is afraid of real change, but it starts on the west coast and from there things actually start to happen.

Well those are some good developments. Even tough this would be a good development, it is sad they legalize something they are against just because they dont have the money to prevent it anymore. Imagine it beiing something worse.

Good topic by the way.

[AbramIsaac]

Well those are some good developments. Even tough this would be a good development, it is sad they legalize something they are against just because they dont have the money to prevent it anymore. Imagine it beiing something worse.

Good topic by the way.

A valid point, but it isn't really applicable here. The truth of the matter is that more politicians than you might think know that the prohibition on marijuana is a bad idea, but the political climate is never good to approach it--wouldn't want to be "soft on drugs", and send the wrong message to the children(!). However, since things have gotten so crazy budget-wise, politicians are able to bring it to the table with the "money" excuse. From there, if the debate continues to hinge on pure facts, the case for legalizing pretty much presents itself.

However, I have read that in at least one California town, they have considered halting prosecution of more crimes than just marijuana possession; I recall vandalism being one of the things they would no longer be able to actively pursue.

@ Chet

The opposing party has a hard time arguing their side--while sticking to the facts. I'm sure there are some people here on TR that see things differently than we do, though.

[Jiskefet]

Abram,
In that case it is good some propose this but still bad the political climate is so conservative they can only get those things done when there is a money shortage. Also there would apparently be people who would disagree if there was money enough so it is basically the same.

I suggest you all come to Amsterdam, smoke a blunt with me and see how good the Dutch policy is lol.

And, yeah we all agree so hard to discuss. Well its not my opinion (I drink alot in the weekends) but let me play devils advocate;

Alcohol should be illegal and categorized under harddrugs.

[Robbie G]

I agree, people shouldn't be locked up for having the weed. Lets make some money off all the stoners.

[GoodGirlsGetGutted]

I'm amazed that marijuana isn't legal yet. I don't smoke it, but I believe my stoner uncle put it best:
"God put it on this fucking earth to enjoy. It's not like alcohol where you have to distill it and add shit to it. Weed is natural. God wants us to smoke it, that's why it's there."
Something like that. I had to admit, it was a valid point.

[Jiskefet]

Yeah he got a point there. Although it is not necissarely true that we have to use and allow things just because they are natural. I smoke very rarely (like twice a year) but I can say weed is something relatively harmless. But sometimes people have to be protected from themselves by just not allow them to use things. For example, some kinds of mushrooms are natural, but the trip they create when people take them makes them commit suicide, depressed or ruins them mentally for a long time. So not everything that is natural should actually be allowed because it is.

[GoodGirlsGetGutted]

Yeah he got a point there. Although it is not necissarely true that we have to use and allow things just because they are natural. I smoke very rarely (like twice a year) but I can say weed is something relatively harmless. But sometimes people have to be protected from themselves by just not allow them to use things. For example, some kinds of mushrooms are natural, but the trip they create when people take them makes them commit suicide, depressed or ruins them mentally for a long time. So not everything that is natural should actually be allowed because it is.

That's a good counterargument.

Necissarely is spelled necessarily.
I only correct you because you clearly care about you spell English even though it's not your native language. This way you won't make the same mistake twice.

[Jiskefet]

Thank you, I am here to learn after all.

[AbramIsaac]

For example, some kinds of mushrooms are natural, but the trip they create when people take them makes them commit suicide, depressed or ruins them mentally for a long time. So not everything that is natural should actually be allowed because it is.

Now we have something to debate. I'd be interested in hearing some more information on the point you stated. Because at the moment, I respectfully disagree with the nature of the content.

Psychedelic drugs are not to be taken lightly, nor should they be considered a recreational drug, but under proper conditions they are relatively harmless. In fact, there is a new resurgence in psychedelic research. Currently, there are three PTSD studies under submission and/or are underway that involve MDMA in Israel, Switzerland, and even the United States. There's a study going on/or has been submitted in Switzerland involving LSD for use with anxiety associated with terminal illness. Cluster headache sufferers have used Psilocybin and LSD with success as well.

Addiction has also shown itself to be a treatable condition with the help of psychedelic drugs. In Canada, data has shown that LSD was a great help in treating alcoholism, by triggering the realization that the patients addictive behavior is in need of a change.

Psychedelics have been demonized, but the need for regulation is clear here, I believe. Currently, these drugs are looked at from a recreational perspective. If they were to be properly utilized, (Set and Setting) people could achieve more in a few sessions than one could achieve normally from a spiritual or ethical standpoint. Physically, even Mescaline is a relatively safe drug.

I'm not saying everyone should take them, or that they should be freely available. However, I don't think that the illegality helps things, nor that it's warranted. Aren't fresh psilocybin mushrooms allowed in your area?