Royce Da 5'9 Compares His Version Of "Renegade" To Jay-Z's "

[PetaParker]

did he talk about why it sounds like Dead Wrong?

[VinniePazienza]

It's art. This shit is childish

[EminemBase]

Lol. Why would any rapper write a verse intentionally to get outshined? That's ridiculous .. What's more ridiculous is thinking that that is what I said by my last post

He simply wrote the verses he can think of, he didn't TRY to outrap a competitior, he tried to make a dope verse. Lmfao @ what you think I was saying..

I know... that's precisely my point. Hence me sarcastically highlighting it...

I didn't think you were GENUINELY saying that, but you saying Jay-Z didn't try to outrap Em implies that, and makes your point seem silly.

How do you know he didn't try to outrap Em? have you spoken to Jay personally? rap is competitive by nature, and Jay-Z is a competetive and egotistical rapper. So I'd say it's far more likely he would try and best or at least match Em.

And I think you thinking Jay-Z didn't have that in mind at all, when it's to be on his own album, is naive, you're just trying to make an excuse for why he was underwhelming in comparison.

Of course, the effect of Eminem's verses are big, because he has a bigger fanbase, and it was one of his few features on a non-label-artist album, and being one of the best Eminem verses. But talk about what he's saying? Jay got his point clear, Jay's verse was more poet-like, Eminem's verse was more rap-like. Ideas? Other than the Bloodsuckers line in the second verse, and the shoe fits i'll wear it bar, he was just rapping. Jay used a lot of metaphors and displayed some situations in his lines.

He has a bigger fanbase? What in the world does Eminem's fanbase have to do with the lyrics he wrote. The merit of those verses has absolutely nothing, zero, to do with his fans, his fame or anything. They're incredible, LYRICALLY, irrespective of everything.

Jay's verse more poetic? no it wasn't.

"Cause see they call me a menace and if the shoe fits I'll wear it, but if it don't, then ya'll swallow the truth grin and bear it"

There's a lot more personality and character in everything he says and in the way he executes it. A poet is a literary personality, and Eminem has a lot more charisma and is more effective.

Eminem's phrasing is far far more naturally poetic and effective than Jay-Z's. Eminem has always had an attention to detail in lines, he's much more particular, he comes across as more intelligent and interesting and his writing is more eloquent than Jay-Z's in this song. Easily.

"Who could inherit the title, put the youth in hysterics, using his music to steer it - sharing his views and his merits"

As usual, he's summerized quite a chunk of complex expression in a few, smooth, articulate lines. He encapsulates / points to everything he does as an artist there. He's essentially a tongue-in-cheek wordsmith who ruffles political feathers. Or certainly back then he was.

Everything Jay-Z says is more generic, more broad. Less impressive.

In that first verse Eminem effortlessly bounces perspective, analyzes what he does (very swiftly and poetically), highlights hypocrsiy ("like you didn't experiment?"), sprinkles mean-spirited humour ("too bad you couldn't do-good at marriage (haha!)") and more.

Jay-Z does some of those things but not nearly as musically or versatile. He can't speak to the listener as creatively, or daringly. He's not as original.

That point is highly subjective though, debating it's 'NOT, CLOSE' with all caps and shit isn't what it is. It's like DA! saying every other genre that's not rap is retarded.

A lot of things are 'highly subjective'. But there's objective reasoning behind all subjectivity.

No matter how random or personal or unexplainable taste or snap judgement or opinion may feel, we can explain all of it and there is a reason for all of our emotions and viewpoints.

When we're discussing something where preference is based on taste, the fact that what we are saying is subjective ie. I can't tell you you don't PREFER Jay-Z's verse as you can't tell me I don't PREFER Eminem's verse - we don't need to highlight the fact that it's subjective. That's obvious, and it'd be a fairly mundane and repetitive discussion if we all constantly kept highlighting (as many feel the need to) this to each other as we speak. Or 'IMO'. We know.

However, we're not simply discussing which we prefer. We are discussing which we think is better, and once we define terms upon which we judge 'better' such as - more clever, more original, more daring, more lyrical (and then define that) etc. then we can actually argue in fairly OBJECTIVE terms. As we can say, well, this verse or lyric is not as X as this, because, dot dot dot.

So there's no need to keep trying to dismiss any kind of authoritive tone or assertive debate regarding these verses by saying "that's highly subjective".

I do not think Jay-Z's verses are close, and I can qualify why I think that. And break it down.

And, it's nothing at all like saying every other genre but rap is retarded. Saying something like that is an instant dismissal of a sea of music or material which one probably wouldn't have heard, and so saying 'every other genre' bar rap is 'retarded' would be fairly ignorant. Even if only ignorant of respect for your own taste or potential for discovery.

Me saying Jay-Z's verses are not close to Eminem's verses is not like that because I have heard this song probably... thousands of times. I know all the contents of the song, I know all the verses well, I have formed an opinion on the verses and I know the reasoning behind my opinions. So it's not a blind dissmisal or an ignorant overstatement. It's an informed opinion, a sense of taste that I have qualified with objective reasoning.

The reasoning can be objective. What's not objective is the preference.

He didn't surpass Eminem in any department on that song.

If you say so.

I do say so.

You highlighted the rhymes while you were arguing that they don't matter. I thought you said lyrics is what he was saying? Jay-Z's high place in that song is what he's saying, not his rhymes (Which are also pretty good). You say that his lyrics are better by highlighting his internal "u" sound, nope, like you said, multi's don't matter more than what he's saying.

I was actually highlighting the structure. The way Eminem wrote an abundance of 'oo' sounding words to make the effect of the verse more pleasurable to the ear. Yet more attention to detail that makes his verse, and writing, superior to Jay-Z's here.

I also did not say rhymes do not matter. I dismissed the idea of grading verses purely on rhyming, as you actually began counting multi's, which is ridiculous. Of course rhymes matter, they make it sound better and more pleasurable. And I think Eminem's rhymes were better too, I said the overall effect matters more. As in, a verse could actually have pretty standard rhymes but ingenious ideas and be better than a verse with incredible rhymes, and poor ideas.

Eminem writing the way he did in that first verse is more than 'multi's' - he focused on a specific and emphasized it to highlight attention. A nice trick to not only make it sound better, but also to keep the attention of the listener, as an upshot making them listen to what you're actually saying, with more focus. More enjoyably.

Eminem's writing, and attention to detail, and phrasing, is a lot more impressive and unique. And, yes what they are saying I would say is the most important. And everything Eminem says is better than everything Jay-Z says also.

Jay says some okay things in the first verse. He highlights the idea of listeners skimming through music and not paying attention, and has some socio-political, conscious lines regarding his past environment in there. It's a nice verse.

But I've heard many similar verses in rap before.

Eminem's first verse, is inhrently poetic in structure, has fine attention to detail, little artistic strokes of word placement and delivery, his focus on hypocrisy and... emphasis of it is more effective and enjoyable too. Partly because of delivery, but also - what he's saying is just more intelligently phrased and thought-out. He's a natural poet, and both of his verses are more innovative, and intelligent on basically every level.

And by "Structure" do you mean the lines length or the order of everything presented? I can't figure out.

I mean Eminem's nuanced focus on word placement, and, every aspect.

Jay-Z had some nice ideas in the song, but they were more generically poured over, written about in a more standard manner. It's nothing shocking or incredibly original to my ears.

Now with Em's, beyond the awesome delivery and his verbal energy - he cared about how every line sounded, there's a focus on every line, how it's coming across. Nothing is glossed over, every word matters and he makes every second count.

His second verse is just beautiful too...

As usual, he effortlessly switches perspective and does some self-commentary:

"We as a people decide if Shady's as bad as they say he is"

I don't know how you can think Jay-Z's writing in this is more poetic than that.

Neither Em or Jay are saying anything absolutely mind-blowing. They're both scattering some mild political ribbing and analysis and personal commentary. But Eminem does it in a much more noteworthy, enjoyable, intelligent and original way.

But there's no question both of Eminem's verses are better than both of Jay's. In every way, and I'm struggling to see how anybody with real respect, knowledge or at least, appreciation of literary technique and execution can grade either of Jay's better.

I'm looking at them again now in text form, it's just not close. The whole overall effect of everything, is just, better.

[GenePeer]

Anybody who thinks Jay-Z is better or even close to Em should note that despite Em's two verses already being recorded and Jay having the opportunity to sit there and not stop until he outwrote Em, he STILL couldn't.

So how can Jay be the best when he had an open opportunity to outwrite / outrap Em, an advantage, and still couldn't do it. And anybody who says Jay's verses are close is delusional.

No one mentioned anything of the sort till you brought it up. Are debates so low that people now have to respond to some imaginary post they disagree with?

[EminemBase]

Anybody who thinks Jay-Z is better or even close to Em should note that despite Em's two verses already being recorded and Jay having the opportunity to sit there and not stop until he outwrote Em, he STILL couldn't.

So how can Jay be the best when he had an open opportunity to outwrite / outrap Em, an advantage, and still couldn't do it. And anybody who says Jay's verses are close is delusional.

No one mentioned anything of the sort till you brought it up. Are debates so low that people now have to respond to some imaginary post they disagree with?

Actually I have seen people say that, and plenty say Jay is the GOAT.

That's why I said 'anybody who thinks'. I didn't direct it at anybody specifically, other than people who think that. Who do exist. So it's not imaginary, just a statement.

[SutterKane1986]

Anybody who thinks Jay-Z is better or even close to Em should note that despite Em's two verses already being recorded and Jay having the opportunity to sit there and not stop until he outwrote Em, he STILL couldn't.

So how can Jay be the best when he had an open opportunity to outwrite / outrap Em, an advantage, and still couldn't do it. And anybody who says Jay's verses are close is delusional.

No one mentioned anything of the sort till you brought it up. Are debates so low that people now have to respond to some imaginary post they disagree with?

Actually I have seen people say that, and plenty say Jay is the GOAT.

That's why I said 'anybody who thinks'. I didn't direct it at anybody specifically, other than people who think that. Who do exist. So it's not imaginary, just a statement.

I tend to agree with you overall......

but lets not pretend jay didnt show up to work on that track....

jay was dope, em was better......

and royce shouldnt even be in this conversation!!!!!

Jay on renegades>>>>> royce on renegades, easily......

with jay and em that record became a classic......

if the only version that existed was the royce cut, this topic wouldnt exist!!!!!!

this was jay and em at their peak

em before he started eatng pills like pac man eats dots.......

and jay before every song he wrote sounded like a soundtrack to a rich old mans wine and cheese party!!!!!

em>>>>>>>>>>>>>>jay>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> royce

[TheGentlePlayer]

Em-Jay version>>>>>>Em-Royce version

[the real slim shady]

nothing will beat the original song... it is probably one of the best songs i have ever heard...


(im tired so i may regret saying that)

[Wreck]

Royce's flow > Jay
Jay's verse > slightly better than Royce's, but not by a large margin.

[Mathers]

nothing will beat the original song... it is probably one of the best songs i have ever heard...


(im tired so i may regret saying that)

You know which one's the original right.

[the real slim shady]

... the jay z one is better than the royce one, end of story.

[Mathers]

... the jay z one is better than the royce one, end of story.

The version with Royce is the original one.

[the real slim shady]

(im tired so i may regret saying that)

please read... i was getting kinda confused after spending too long on xbox the jay z one is the better of the 2, it is one of my favourite songs... or was a few weeks ago

i'm sorry for fucking up there i blame halo reach for being so addictive.. not sure how i made that mistake, but dont worry, it wont happen again