EminemBase vs. Blu - God

[Eedee]

where are the cold hard facts that god exists?

Ray Comfort is a fucking joke.

[EminemBase]

EminemBase, what are your views on whether the world would be better off with religon or without religon? Regadless if god exists.

It'd absolutely be better off without religion.

Religion is a poison and perversion to morality, self-worth, life, self-respect... it's ugly and bizarre.

I think individuals (who have been indoctrinated in their childhood and now subconsciously associate religion to their parents / upbringing / culture: hence the offence if questioned) would be better off without it and I think humanity as a whole would be, MUCH better off without it. In all its forms.

Most of the least violent and most peaceful countries in the world are also the least religious (and most adhered to scientific thinking. Science = logic = rationality = sense = peace.). And most of the most violent, disruptive, disrupted, disturbed; morally appauling, socially defunct and broken countries in the world (COUGHMIDDLEEASTCOUGH) are the most religious.

Also, note: not only are the most broken and fucked up countries often the most religious but they completely submit to religion as a whole. It's not a choice, it's part of their heritage and culture, fully and unapologetic - it's practically law, and above it. These countries are great examples of what happens to people who live their life by, and base their beliefs on superstitions, traditions, bronze-age mythology; irrationality, perverse morality and worship.

Ironically, they often consider themselves 'god's true people' and yet... despite being the chosen ones, 'god' has 'chosen' to make them the most poor and the most socially broken people in the modern world... and, what... reward the godless, scientific communities with relative utopia? lmao.

There's good people, and there's bad people... good people do good things, bad people do bad things. But with religion, not only does it pervert otherwise good people into bizarre irrational thinking and encourage them to do evil and strange things, but it justifies and amplifies any existing evil in the mind's of already perverse people. It's a pathway to extremism, it justifies evil.

Religion always has and always will lead to death and suffering as an upshot of its circular contradictions that inspire madness and differences that cannot be solved in any other way than violence (to some) because the ideas are not justified with evidence or logic. Because of this, it is inherently dangerous, and it's the fact that the ideas are preached to be from a source higher than humanity - religion is a horrid stain on the sheet of history, and we're finally seeing the 'atheist pushback' in America (it's long been a reality in most of Europe for a while now) - it's just a matter of time before the collective consciousness tips and we find the right detergent.

With that said, I don't think it will ever truly be erradicated or 'never be' again, but I think over the next few hundred years it may simmer down to a more fringe existence than ever.

But yes, I do think we'd be a fuck-load better off without it. Entirely.

Justify beliefs with evidence, and logic, and rational thinking. Science is beautiful because it knows what it knows, and it progresses. This bizarre misconception that science is arrogant is obvious nonsense to the fact... science makes unthinkable leaps every decade. Arrogant people don't learn from their mistakes. And similarly, truly arrogant or ignorant organizations or structures don't progress much if at all, hence why religion does not ever truly progress.

If science were arrogant then it wouldn't have been able to be at the forefront of such an abundance of discovery and refinement throughout history; consistently refining reviews requires an inherent humility, as you need to be willing to admit and know that you are wrong or that what you currently know may not be the total truth, or totally correct.

The only thing that has ever truly helped mankind, is science.

A pencil, a car, a TV, a computer, health... any benefit you can think of is because of science. It's because of the application of logic, the application of refinement of knowledge after discovery and understanding of information. Religion is internally against progress, it's against questioning... religion encourages and permits the idea that belief without evidence is not only good but that it's a holy order. Blind faith is not a good thing, it's blind.

Science, logic - art, understanding - philosophy, reason. These are the keys to peace and progress.

[CrashBand]

^pretty much agree with everything you've stated. I'm a very strong atheist myself.

The reason I brought it up is because someone who I had a argument/discussion about this recently brought up how religion is such a strong tool when it comes to charities (he was involved in some charity shit himself) and he thought you would struggle to find a better alternative if there was no religion.

Also along those lines there are a lot of positives that religion brings. So there is the problem of finding successful substitutes for them. For example religion offers a lot of help towards their communities (shelters, providing food for homeless and also just offering a place where people can find a belonging).

I guess the main problem with no religion is that when you look at all the good it does in the world, it does it pretty successfully. Would we be able to accomplish the positives religion can without it?

I guess this is kind irrelevant anyway as you can still just say 'well the negatives we got rid of outweigh the positives we got rid of'.

But we sure would have a few tasks on our hands to find adequate replacements.

[Chet Starr]

I'm still trying to be a little bit religious now a days. Mostly because I rebelled against it so much as a child, so I been reading up on the history of it all. Sadly I think I'm just becoming more atheist. (Just me talking randomly)

Base - How does religion make good people act evil? I have tons of christian friends that are great people. No crazy or weird behavior (unless your calling going to church weird)

[EminemBase]

The reason I brought it up is because someone who I had a argument/discussion about this recently brought up how religion is such a strong tool when it comes to charities (he was involved in some charity shit himself) and he thought you would struggle to find a better alternative if there was no religion.

But religion isn't a strong tool for charity. Humans are.

Human empathy is the basis of our solidarity and desire to help each other (if and when it's present in people), and that has nothing to do with religion.

Religion condemns, divides and depersonalizes people.

What do you mean 'alternative', you say that like there are no charitable non-believers? look at Live 8, look at Bono, look at Bob Geldof, look at Bill Gates, look at the plethora of billionaires and millionaires and giving companies and people around the world that do nothing but charitable work.

And most of those people / companies / organizations are not founded in, based on or relied up by religion in any sense.

There isn't 'an' alternative religion, as religion is not the basis for morality or charity. These things exist without religion, and better without it. As there's no divisive beliefs or irrational undertones polluting the empathy and desire to help people. Charity is better without religion.

Also along those lines there are a lot of positives that religion brings. So there is the problem of finding successful substitutes for them. For example religion offers a lot of help towards their communities (shelters, providing food for homeless and also just offering a place where people can find a belonging).

I guess the main problem with no religion is that when you look at all the good it does in the world, it does it pretty successfully. Would we be able to accomplish the positives religion can without it?

Again, these things exist (and often better) WITHOUT religious involvement.

The basis for charity or relating to each other and wanting to give is empathy. It's the realization of emotion in self, and a mutual compassion shared by being part of the tree of life and being able to conceive of another's pain as your own. That has zero to do with religion.

Religion hinders everything.

Take a look at the biggest charities right now - most of them are scientific based charities. Charities focused on battling cancer, heart disease, mental diseases etc. - these charities are progressive and founded in research, humanity and secular compassion.

If we based charities of these kinds on religion, we'd discourage the use of medicine, people would be dying sooner and more painfully. How much disease does praying cure...

It is an illusion and a lie and a misrepresentation that religion itself is this... driving force of compassion and morality. It's nothing of the sort. Check out the wars currently going on or any that have happened in the past decade - they are all inherently rooted in religious dogma.

Then check out the latest breakthroughs in health and charity... or some of the biggest charitable donors... they are scientific and secular. In the words of Hitchens, "religion poisons everything".

But we sure would have a few tasks on our hands to find adequate replacements.

No, we don't want 'replacements', religion isn't the source of any of this.

Charity has always and continues to exist and prosper, better, without religion.

Compassion is a psychological-genetic component, it has nothing to do with mythology.

We already have an abundance of religion-free charity and charitable people. And always have.

[CrashBand]

But religion isn't a strong tool for charity. Humans are.

Human empathy is the basis of our solidarity and desire to help each other (if and when it's present in people), and that has nothing to do with religion.

Religion condemns, divides and depersonalizes people.

Of course religion can be a tool for charity. I don't know why you are being close minded and brushing this off.

My main problem with religion, and I would expect it to be yours too (apart from it being untrue and blind faith). Is that it can influence people to do evil things (I won't elaborate as you pointed out this out in your earlier post).

Now with this in mind, how can you say religion can't do the opposite?

Don't get me wrong I'm not preaching that religion is the source of morals, in fact it is pretty much the exact opposite. But I do believe it can be used as a very powerful tool for good just as it can be for evil.

A hypothetical situation would be - lets say me an atheist wanted to set up a shelter or a charity or anything you can think of that would be good for society. Now are you saying religion could not be used as a way of helping me achieve this? Lets say I didn't have the billions of dollars Bill Gates has or the Billions of fans Bono has.

Religion has huge influence. Surely, it COULD be used as a tool for good.

And most of those people / companies / organizations are not founded in, based on or relied up by religion in any sense.

If that's the case and you can back that up, then fuck it. Religion is as pointless as an arguement over whether god exists.

There isn't 'an' alternative religion, as religion is not the basis for morality or charity.

I never said it was the basis. Just that it can be used as a tool. Without religion we would have to find other ways that are just as influential. (ie. money, power, fame).

Also along those lines there are a lot of positives that religion brings. So there is the problem of finding successful substitutes for them. For example religion offers a lot of help towards their communities (shelters, providing food for homeless and also just offering a place where people can find a belonging).

I guess the main problem with no religion is that when you look at all the good it does in the world, it does it pretty successfully. Would we be able to accomplish the positives religion can without it?

Again, these things exist (and often better) WITHOUT religious involvement.

The basis for charity or relating to each other and wanting to give is empathy. It's the realization of emotion in self, and a mutual compassion shared by being part of the tree of life and being able to conceive of another's pain as your own. That has zero to do with religion.

Yes, but just like Bono can, just like Bill Gates can, religion can use its influence it has to help spread good.

So NO, religion is not the source and the reason for why I would set up a charity. But in theory I could use religion to help fuel it.

(PS. Sorry we should've made another thread as this is a completely different arguement, but I was new when I first posted in this thread)

[EminemBase]

^ My point is that religion itself is not a helpful tool for charity. The elements you consider religious or a part of religion are within us and evident in all humans anyway.

I see charities / charitable people doing better things, without it.

It may organize people to a degree and emphasize empathy on some level, but the basis of all charity is the same and religion only ever has a divisive effect on things as I see it.

And there's nowhere near enough justification for its 'positive existence'. Good exists without it, often in much greater and more justifiable ways.

The only thing I see religion positively causing is war, death and arguing. And yes those things exist without religion too, but it's notable due to the fact that religion causes it in abundance. We don't need religion to be good, and only good can come of eradicating its negativity and falsehoods.

Other than that it can result in emotional self-delusion that addicts and others claim / feel can help them... through tough times - if that's the case, fine. I don't care what people believe.

But you asked me if I thought society would be better without it, to which my answer is yes. No doubt. And there's nothing religion does on a positive scale that I don't see happening anyway. There's no need for it, the only truly inherent result of it is delusion, covering of truth, perversion of morals and humanity - and separation.

[CrashBand]

But you asked me if I thought society would be better without it, to which my answer is yes. No doubt. And there's nothing religion does on a positive scale that I don't see happening anyway. There's no need for it, the only truly inherent result of it is delusion, covering of truth, perversion of morals and humanity - and separation.

Pretty much this haha.

Cheers man, good discussion.

[EminemBase]

But you asked me if I thought society would be better without it, to which my answer is yes. No doubt. And there's nothing religion does on a positive scale that I don't see happening anyway. There's no need for it, the only truly inherent result of it is delusion, covering of truth, perversion of morals and humanity - and separation.

Pretty much this haha.

Cheers man, good discussion.

Thanks, you too

@Revolutionary - Will reply to you soon.

[cityfan31]

Religion poisons everything - Christopher Hitchens.

That's pretty much my opinion. Religion is the biggest threat to the future of the human race.

I'm studying psychiatry at the moment and I think belief in God could be classed as a delusion - but it's one held by so many that it's not considered a delusion.

[CrashBand]

I'm studying psychiatry at the moment and I think belief in God could be classed as a delusion - but it's one held by so many that it's not considered a delusion.

obvious point is obvious.

[Almostlity]

Fuck god and everybody that luv em.





jk.

[BigBoss]

I'm studying psychiatry at the moment and I think belief in God could be classed as a delusion - but it's one held by so many that it's not considered a delusion.

obvious point is obvious.

Holy shit this so much. I'm in Psychology at my college, the believe in God is a fucking disorder/delusion , but when you use psychological facts and evidence to bring it up, suddenly YOU'RE the delusional one, America fuckin sucks man.

[cityfan31]

I'm studying psychiatry at the moment and I think belief in God could be classed as a delusion - but it's one held by so many that it's not considered a delusion.

obvious point is obvious.

Obvious to you, but not obvious to the billions of people that believe in God. I don't like arrogance.

[Eedee]

Religion poisons everything - Christopher Hitchens.

That's pretty much my opinion. Religion is the biggest threat to the future of the human race.

I'm studying psychiatry at the moment and I think belief in God could be classed as a delusion - but it's one held by so many that it's not considered a delusion.

As much as I agree with your point, I hate to do this but it's human species* not race.