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EminemBase vs. Blu - God

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Re: EminemBase vs. Blu - God

Postby Willy » Oct 16th, '12, 00:46

CrashBand wrote:
WilyMo021 wrote:Given that:

1. Humans truly don't have free will.
2. Everything in the observable universe is predictable if given enough variables.

I think our illusion of choice as well as all our perceptions are a direct result of a computer simulation being run by a species of greater intelligence. Our entire universe operates under the parameters outlined by the simulation, hence why everything is calculable and free will cannot possibly exist. So, I guess in a way this makes me a creationist? Even so, I'm not driven by the same underlying motives. If what I believe is true, our existence is pretty unremarkable, I think the best we can do is derive as much happiness before we bite the dust.

Also, I realize this just pushes the problem of defining the cause of existence one step back. But maybe the reason we can't answer "How does something, come from nothing" is simply because we weren't program to do so. Much in the same way you wouldn't expect a turtle in Mario to question its existence and start sending you text messages about why he exists...you can't expect us to be able to understand a problem outside of our scope of thought, or outside of what we were programmed to do.

And we as a species are getting closer to creating a simulation of our own with the growing processing power of technology.. Maybe our legacy is to improve upon our current universe with the one we create?

:)

:facepalm

You are still making a leap of faith.


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Re: EminemBase vs. Blu - God

Postby CrashBand » Oct 16th, '12, 00:51

WilyMo021 wrote:Hit me with your best


Well firstly, quantum physics kind of messes with your 2nd premise. (that the universe is predictable)

But anyway, you are still making a leap of faith and believing in this 'computer designer' in the absence of evidence.

And I think your belief is still the same underlying motives - mainly for the reasons of explaining things.
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Re: EminemBase vs. Blu - God

Postby Block » Oct 16th, '12, 00:52

Eedee wrote:
Block wrote:Atheists make me chuckle. Then again, so do Christians and any other religion... I guess I'm at a loss. To say Atheism isn't a religion is ridiculous.


To say it IS is ridiculous. Religion revolves around beliefs, atheism is a lack of beliefs...



Atheism is the belief that there is no god. According to the Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy:

“Atheism is the position that affirms the non-existence of God. It proposes positive disbelief rather than mere suspension of belief."

Buddhism is atheistic in the sense of denying that there is any overarching deity such as the Creator-God of the Bible. Atheism in the western sense excludes Buddhism, and adherents claim that it is not a religion. One Atheist said:

“Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color”

However, atheists make such claims so Atheism can avoid legal imperatives placed on religions in many countries, and can avoid some of the ideological hang-ups people have about “religion”. It also creates a false dichotomy between science (which they claim must be naturalistic and secular) and religion.

Atheism will be defined in the contemporary western sense: not just the lack of belief in a god, but the assertion about the non-existence of any gods, spirits, or divine or supernatural beings. Atheists in this sense are metaphysical naturalists, and as will be shown, they DO follow a religion.

Religion is a difficult thing to define. Various definitions have been proposed, many of which emphasize a belief in the supernatural.4 But such definitions break down on closer inspection for several reasons. They fail to deal with religions which worship non-supernatural things in their own right (for example Jainism, which holds that every living thing is sacred because it is alive, or the Mayans who worshiped the sun as a deity in and of itself rather than a deity associated with the sun)5; they fail to include religions such as Confucianism and Taoism which focus almost exclusively on how adherents should live, and the little they do say about supernatural issues such as the existence of an afterlife is very vague; they also don’t deal with religious movements centered around UFOs—which believe that aliens are highly (evolutionarily) advanced (but not supernatural) beings.

A better way to determine whether a worldview is a religion is to look for certain characteristics that religions have in common. The framework set forth by Ninian Smart, commonly known as the Seven Dimensions of Religion, is widely accepted by anthropologists and researchers of religion as broadly covering the various aspects of religion, without focusing on things unique to specific religions.

The seven dimensions proposed by Smart are narrative, experiential, social, ethical, doctrinal, ritual and material. Not every religion has every dimension, nor are they all equally important within an individual religion. Smart even argues that the “secularization” of western society is actually a shift of focus from the doctrinal and ritual to the experiential.


Narrative

Every religion has its stories. Almost all religions have stories explaining where the universe came from and what humanity’s part in it is. Smart calls this Narrative.

Narrative is a particularly important aspect of western Atheism. As the prominent Atheist Richard Dawkins said, referring to Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution:

“Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist.”

Evolution is an explanation of where everything came from: the cosmos (came out of nothing at the big bang—nothing exploded and became everything); humans evolved from non-human creatures, hence humanity’s place in the cosmos is being just another species of animal. Some have gone so far as to say that humanity is a parasite on earth, and advocate killing up to 90% of humanity. There are some who attempt to combine belief in God with belief in evolution, not realizing the foundational nature of evolution’s connection to Atheism.9 The testimony of those who after learning about evolution in “science” reject Christianity should alert church leaders to the incompatibility between evolution and the Gospel.


Experiential

There are two aspects to the experiential dimension. The first is the events experienced before someone founded a religion (for example the Disciples physically saw and touched the bodily resurrected Jesus). It is often asserted that Charles Darwin, after observing evidence from around the world during his voyage on HMS Beagle, developed the theory of evolution. (In reality, he had already learned a version of evolution from his grandfather Erasmus’s book Zoonomia and similar ideas were around at the time).

The second aspect of the experiential dimension concerns the experiences of latter adherents. Many people feel certain emotions when they participate in certain religious ceremonies. Atheists often believe that Atheism is freedom from religion, and some Atheists have reported feeling liberated after converting. Karl Marx said that the removal of the illusion of happiness by the removal of religion was a step towards true happiness. Atheistic denial of the divine entails denial of an afterlife. If there is no afterlife, then ultimately is no higher purpose in life for Atheists than to be happy. According to the Humanist Manifesto II, the only meaning in life is what the person gives it. In the Humanist Manifesto III, this was changed to finding meaning in relationships. Belief in evolution also causes people to aim for self preservation and to spread their own genes.

Smart also seems to include “faith” as part of the experiential dimension. The meaning of the word “faith” is often twisted to make it mean things it does not. In Christianity, faith is logical, being defined in Hebrews 1:11 as “being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.” This is not blindly believing the impossible (which is how many Atheists define faith), but rather trusting the promises of God, whose past promises have all been fulfilled. I would classify Christian faith as part of the doctrinal dimension rather than experiential. On the other hand, Atheism requires “faith” (using their own definition) that the laws of chemistry, physics and biology were once violated and life arose from non-life via chemical evolution.


Social

The social dimension of religion looks at the hierarchies and power structures present within the religion, such the Hindu caste system. In missionary religions, it also includes how people get converted and how missionaries go about their work.

Contemporary Atheism has been fueled largely by authors promoting their Atheistic beliefs. In the preface to The God Delusion, Dawkins says,

“If this book works as I intend, religious readers who open it will be atheists when they put it down.”

Dawkins is saying he hopes that his book converts “religious” people to his worldview – exactly what a missionary of any religion hopes to do.

Communist countries often made the state religion Atheism, often to the point of persecuting (other) religions.13 This followed from Karl Marx’ statement:

“It [religion] is the opiate of the masses. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.”

Marxists saw the removal of religion as a step toward true happiness for the common people, although in practice this did not occur, and contemporary critics see Marxism itself as a religion. (I would contend that Marxism is a sect of a larger religion: Atheism).

Many scientists are high up on the social hierarchy of Atheism because their research enhances their understanding of the world. Particularly honoured are those scientists who write extensively about evolution. Because of this, many scientists include a little about evolution in their research papers, even when there is little or no relevance (one recent example concerns research into the chameleon’s catapult tongue and suction cap; see Created, not evolved)

Atheism is also taught to children in many schools in science classes as evolution. As atheistic philosopher Michael Ruse admits, “evolution is a religion”, and it could be considered the narrative dimension of Atheism. Thus teaching evolution is teaching Atheism. Several Atheists even support teaching lies, as long as the end result is more children believing evolution.


Doctrinal

Doctrines are the beliefs and philosophies that develop out of a religion (not necessarily being specifically stated in the religious narratives, etc). For example, the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, while not directly stated in the Bible, is logically derived from it.

Contemporary Atheism gained popularity in the 18th and 19th centuries, after the “enlightenment”. In 1933, some prominent Atheist philosophers realised the effects the lack of a belief in a god would have on the morals of society and wrote what they believed would be a suitable set of beliefs and goals for a secular society in the 20th century. In doing so, they formed the branch of Atheism known as Secular Humanism. By and large, Atheists believe and adhere to the things written in the Humanist Manifesto, even if they don’t know the specifics of the document. After all, many Atheists do want to do what is good.

The doctrines, ethics and goals outlined in the Humanist Manifesto, while being atheistic and accepting evolution as true, are opposite of what would be expected if they were solely derived from the evolutionary narrative. This is because Humanism also makes the assumption that humans are basically good.

In 1973 however, the Humanist Manifesto was updated because of the atrocities that humans inflicted upon other humans during the intervening years (specifically mentioned are Nazism and communist police states).


Ethical

Atheism is a morally relativist religion. Most Atheists adhere to one ethical system or another, but in Atheism there is ultimately no foundation for morality, as atheists Dawkins and Provine admit. Many systems of ethics have been proposed; utilitarianism is probably the most popular one.

Some people have taken a further step by creating ethical systems based on the evolutionary narrative and the principle of “survival of the fittest”. People who have lived by such principles include the perpetrators of the Columbine Massacre, the Jokela School Shooting in Finland, and on a much larger scale, the Nazis.

Most people (Atheist or not) inherently know that systems that lead to such atrocities must be wrong, but Atheists cannot give a logical reason for why it is wrong. This contradiction was highlighted by Dawkins when he said “I’m a passionate Darwinian when it comes to science, when it comes to explaining the world, but I’m a passionate anti-Darwinian when it comes to morality and politics.” It was also graphically shown when two evolutionists wrote a book claiming that rape is an evolutionary mechanism to spread male genes—and see how one of them squirmed to justify why he agreed that rape is objectively wrong under his philosophy.

A world governed purely by Atheistic, evolutionary ethics has been shown by history to be a horrible place to live. Most Atheists recognize this and choose to live by the ethical systems of other religions instead, or at the very least, live by the laws enforced by the government.


Ritual

Ritual is the only dimension which on the surface might appear to be absent from the religion of Atheism. In some religions, rituals have meanings attached to them, such as Passover commemorating the Israelites’ escape from Egypt. Because Atheism is a relatively recent movement, it doesn’t have much of a history to commemorate. In other religions, rituals such as sacrifices and dances are done to appease the gods or the spirits. Because Atheism denies the existence of gods and spirits, it doesn’t have the second type of ritual either. Many Atheists do practice “secular rituals” such as their birthday celebrations, or the ‘ritual holidays’ of other religions such as the Christmas and Easter public holidays of Christianity, but this is usually to simply maintain the tradition of a public holiday, and the original meaning of the celebrations are rejected. It’s noteworthy that in recent years, the atheists’ public commemoration of the anniversary of Darwin’s birth each February (and even of the publication of his Origin of Species in November), along with calls for the general public to do the same, is rapidly becoming something of an annual ritual, even in some “churches”. One might even say that this modern Atheistic commemoration is being ‘celebrated’ with greater fervor and passion than many longstanding religious rituals.


Material

The material dimension of religion, says Smart, includes all the physical things created by a religion such as art and buildings, and also natural features and places treated as sacred by adherents. While Atheism by its nature of denying the divine can’t have objects that represent the divine (such as icons or idols), nature is treated as sacred by some Atheists in and of itself.

There are two extremes in the range of ideas held by Atheists on the ‘material’:

natural resources are here to be exploited because of “survival of the fittest” and humans are obviously the fittest species; or
we should respect all of nature, particularly living things because to kill them is tantamount to murdering a cousin. This second view essentially holds that all life is ‘sacred’.

Both ideas can be derived from the evolutionary narrative, but views tending towards the second idea are more prevalent than the views tending towards the first. But as G.K. Chesterton said a century ago:

“Darwinism can be used to back up two mad moralities, but it cannot be used to back up a single sane one. The kinship and competition of all living creatures can be used as a reason for being insanely cruel or insanely sentimental; but not for a healthy love of animals. … The main point of Christianity was this: that Nature is not our mother: Nature is our sister. We can be proud of her beauty, since we have the same father; but she has no authority over us; we have to admire, but not to imitate.”

An Atheist’s view of the material dimension is strongly influenced by their view of the ethical dimension.


Conclusion

Atheists often claim that their belief is not a religion. This allows them to propagate their beliefs in settings where other religions are banned, but this should not be so.

Contemporary Western Atheism unquestionably has six of the seven dimensions of religion set forth by Smart, and the remaining dimension, ritual, has also started to develop. Thus it’s fallacious to assert, “Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color”. Perhaps a better analogy would be calling a shaved head a “hairstyle”. Other than the denial of the divine, there is little difference between Atheism and other worldviews typically labelled as religions.

The dichotomy that Atheists try to create between science and religion is false. The conflict is between interpretations of science coming from different religious worldviews.

Atheism shouldn’t be taught or enforced in settings where other religions are banned and shouldn’t be favored by laws which imply a religiously neutral government.





Sure seems like a religion to me.
Last edited by Block on Oct 16th, '12, 00:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EminemBase vs. Blu - God

Postby CrashBand » Oct 16th, '12, 00:54

Do you have a tl:dr version?
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Re: EminemBase vs. Blu - God

Postby Block » Oct 16th, '12, 00:59

CrashBand wrote:Do you have a tl:dr version?

How can you expect to argue your side of an argument if you don't read the opposing side's views in the first place?

Atheism encompasses all of the traits that define a religion as a religion. That's the TL;DR version.
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Re: EminemBase vs. Blu - God

Postby CrashBand » Oct 16th, '12, 01:10

Block wrote:
CrashBand wrote:Do you have a tl:dr version?

How can you expect to argue your side of an argument if you don't read the opposing side's views in the first place?


Yeah, I agree. Just wondered what we were getting into.

Atheism encompasses all of the traits that define a religion as a religion. That's the TL;DR version.

Okay cool. I think this is a common misconception and there is a fundamental difference and they are not equal at all.

Will respond in full.
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Re: EminemBase vs. Blu - God

Postby classthe_king » Oct 16th, '12, 01:12

what lol

Religion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Atheism is the belief that there is no god. That is it. Atheism doesn't saying anything about the cause, nature and purpose of the universe. It definitely doesn't have a superhuman agency or agencies. It has zero devotional and ritual observances and it has absolutely no moral code. It fits zero of the criteria for being a religion.
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Re: EminemBase vs. Blu - God

Postby Willy » Oct 16th, '12, 01:23

CrashBand wrote:
WilyMo021 wrote:Hit me with your best


Well firstly, quantum physics kind of messes with your 2nd premise. (that the universe is predictable)

But anyway, you are still making a leap of faith and believing in this 'computer designer' in the absence of evidence.

And I think your belief is still the same underlying motives - mainly for the reasons of explaining things.


1. Yeah I foresaw quantum physics being brought up...Allow me to alter my premise to everything has to be mathematically explainable.

2. Theoretically, if everything in our universe is mathematically explainable including our consciousness, we can use the explanations as parameters in a universe we program as long as the computer has the processing power to keep up. These universes are already being attempted.

3. You really think a majority of creationists want an explanation, or the comforting illusion that their life has divine purpose and meaning?

It might be a bit before I can respond. Not even debating our existence can distract me from trying to impress hot girls in the gym :)
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Re: EminemBase vs. Blu - God

Postby B.A.D. » Oct 16th, '12, 01:25

Just wanted to share something for you people regarding Atheism

Some people have different kinds of Atheism. Some are like Class explained... just dont care about anything and go along with their lives. yeah, that is definitvely not a religion... But there is certain atheist who actually have some kind of practices and purpose science as the factual design of human believes in some sort of way, whilst, Like Christianity did back then (and probably still does); they invite people to become atheist but actually believe in what these people believe, what ever that may be. It can be a scientific matter or just an existentialist perception with some kind of practices that accompany it. That is the Atheist religion in contrast to the Atheist nature of people.

carry on...
now if you would like to discuss a REAL SERIOUS topic, go one post down to Iggy Azalea's breat implants discussion... now that's an insightful matter of debate!
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Re: EminemBase vs. Blu - God

Postby CrashBand » Oct 16th, '12, 01:54

WilyMo021 wrote:2. Theoretically, if everything in our universe is mathematically explainable including our consciousness, we can use the explanations as parameters in a universe we program as long as the computer has the processing power to keep up. These universes are already being attempted.

3. You really think a majority of creationists want an explanation, or the comforting illusion that their life has divine purpose and meaning?


Well those are definitely both reasons why people believe in a creator.

But again, you are using a leap of faith to believe this.

To try and explain things we don't know about the universe. But your explanation still leave questions, that are even harder to answer.
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Re: EminemBase vs. Blu - God

Postby Block » Oct 16th, '12, 02:04

classthe_king wrote:what lol

Religion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Atheism is the belief that there is no god. That is it. Atheism doesn't saying anything about the cause, nature and purpose of the universe. It definitely doesn't have a superhuman agency or agencies. It has zero devotional and ritual observances and it has absolutely no moral code.

Someone still doesn't know what he's arguing about.



It fits zero of the criteria for being a religion.

Stating this--without any form of proof to back your claim--after I already posted proof that it fits every criteria, minus ritual, is kind of redundant and adds nothing of value to the discussion. Try again?
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Re: EminemBase vs. Blu - God

Postby classthe_king » Oct 16th, '12, 02:06

Block wrote:
classthe_king wrote:what lol

Religion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Atheism is the belief that there is no god. That is it. Atheism doesn't saying anything about the cause, nature and purpose of the universe. It definitely doesn't have a superhuman agency or agencies. It has zero devotional and ritual observances and it has absolutely no moral code.

Someone still doesn't know what he's arguing about.



It fits zero of the criteria for being a religion.

Stating this--without any form of proof to back your claim--after I already posted proof that it fits every criteria, minus ritual, is kind of redundant and adds nothing of value to the discussion. Try again?


I don't need proof to back a claim like this. Atheist is the belief that there is no god. THAT IS IT. Absolutely nothing else. Everything you said is wrong.
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Re: EminemBase vs. Blu - God

Postby Block » Oct 16th, '12, 02:11

classthe_king wrote:I have no idea what I'm arguing for, so I'm going to play the role of the ignorant peasant that I've become so accustomed to doing. You know, just like the Christians and other religious fools that I attempt to belittle.


I translated your post to make it a bit more accurate.
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Re: EminemBase vs. Blu - God

Postby CrashBand » Oct 16th, '12, 02:14

Menzo wrote:^ There are religions that aren't about the worship of a god, or even belief in a god
Religions are a set of beliefs.
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Re: EminemBase vs. Blu - God

Postby CrashBand » Oct 16th, '12, 02:21

"Other than the denial of the divine, there is little difference between Atheism and other religions."

This is a misconception.

There is a fundamental difference between arguing for a claim in the absence of evidence (religious belief) and arguing against a claim due to the absence of evidence to support it. (atheism)

These two are not both equally arrogant and unbending with their claims of certainty. 

A believer’s claim to knowledge rests wholly in faith-based hypotheses. These claims are not proven.
Belief in these accounts inherently requires a faith-based approach since they are beyond the scope of what we know to be possible in our world.

Whereas, atheists claim that since there is no evidence to support the existence of a supernatural god, then until proven otherwise there is no reason to believe that one exists

The difference can be illustrated when presented with evidence that challenges their respective fundamental hypothesis - an atheist, who's stance relies heavily on evidence, will likely change or alter his opinion if presented with a strong case for the existence of a god.  However when the believer is presented evidence countering his hypothesis, he has no reason to change his stance since it rests on faith instead of fact.

When scientists don’t know something — they admit it. In contrast, pretending to know things one doesn’t is the life-blood of faith-based religion.

Stephen F. Roberts once said: “I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”

The label of atheism itself is unfortunate. Athiesm is a term we don't really need. Athiesm is completely without content. Everyone is an atheist to the old gods. There is no evidence to support the existence of a god, thus there is no reason to have to prove something that doesn't exist. This should preclude the necessity for atheism.
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