What People Were Saying About Em 15 Years Ago

[EminemBase]

"If Em made another masterpiece... it
would be called a masterpiece."
Like Relapse, which was almost universally panned?
You're giving these critics waaay too much credit.
Almost every review of the MMLP2 that I read made mention of the homophobia and misogyny, one of such reviews (AbsolutePunk) was almost solely responsible for dragging the MMLP2 down from an 80 on Metacritic.
Look at the reviews of Yeezus or MBDTF, for example, and look at the reviews for the original MMLP. Then tell me that the critical reaction to Em's albums have nothing to do with him as a person.

But Relapse is not a masterpiece.

And it was panned due to the style - and content... MMLP was very real-world - very listenable and agreeable style due to being very clear, at a funky pace - so despite it being so vicious and subversive... it's made to be consumed by the masses. It's complex but very clear and very catchy.

Where as... to the average listener, Relapse is tricky and weird to listen to. It's not easy listening; the flows are like bunched up energy, he's fucking with words and the ways you say sentences; it's more like a little art-house project and he's also being very very abstract rather than direct and commenting on real-world events.

So... you kind of have to really love the style... or not. It's a very acquired-taste, which MMLP is too but it's so absolutely clear in terms of sound, intention and ideas that it translates on many levels. So even if you don't adore the style - it's still likely to affect you deeply in some way - not the case with Relapse.

And it wasn't universally panned, it was completely split down the middle. Some fans ADORE it, some HATE it; some critics said Em expanded the boundaries of rap with it, some said it was a dud... it's his most divisive album by far but unlike Encore which was split due to a middling reaction aka ''eh, it's alright'', with Relapse it really is mostly a OMG IT'S GENIUS or OMG WTF IS THIS GARBAGE. It's very divisive, not a universal masterpiece.

And I'm not giving critics credit - there are reasons why things get agreeably praised or not, or why things sound nice in our brains and we mostly all agree on that, that's how things get universal acclaim to begin with. It's not a coincidence MOST people who watch Goodfellas think it's a brilliant film. There's reasons why, it's not random; so reactions are valid and they are a reflection of what was experienced / the quality.

As for your homophobia judging comment... so what? That's misunderstanding. Kanye doesn't do anything as provocative in his art to cause that response, he's not as artistically complex. That's not a reaction to Em as a person, it's a misunderstanding of the art... which is always going to happen with anything - but the overall reaction, or rather - the positive reactions, will still reflect the standard of what was experienced. Nobody is calling MMLP2 a masterpiece because it isn't, nor a classic. People were calling MMLP that because it is. Doesn't matter about those who don't get it - just the standard of reaction of those that do.

[EminemBase]

@EminemInsider: lol yeah a bunch of those are hilarious

I honestly don't think anything Eminem puts out will be universally praised. As far as the public is concerned, so many people hate him today. Especially on the internet. As far as critics go, even MMLP and TES were not universally praised by critics. The Carter 3 and Yeezus got more consistent critical praise than both of them. Reactions to Em's music has always been mixed.

Praise for MMLP and TES was pretty universal. Just because Metacritic defines universal as above 80 and hand-picks which critics they include doesn't mean much lmao.

But almost anybody who makes a essential albums to listen to before you die or 500 best albums ever or any hip-hop critic, expert, historian, fan, or whatever asked in the flesh - agree that they are incredible albums; mmlp especially being jizzed over as a masterwork.

That is universal praise, it's entirely recognized as a classic and a landmark album.

But I know what you mean. But I think the sliiight disapproving reactions - which are almost always based on misunderstanding of his lyrics... that's perfect. That's exactly how it should be. I think if some people aren't confused and pissed off then you aren't doing anything. Kanye gets 90 because his themes are pandering - not intentionally; but his themes are liberal and embracing and his music is catchy and relaxing, in comparison to early Em who is actually also liberal and embracing but chooses to code that in fact beneath a puzzle of provocative faux-bigotry, jibes and jokes - which some people take to be him, like retards. And then you have his music and style which is aggressive, harsh and in your face - so that's bound to repel some. His music is made to be winced at, pondered over and winced at.

But I wouldn't say the reaction is mixed. There's no real debate that his best work is among the best in hip=hop history... that he has at least 2 classics etc. he does get universal praise.

[brady50]

The instant reaction to Encore was positive...

[Amadeo]

]
Translation: Eminem writes some dark material. Because he writes dark material, this makes him troubled, because writing dark material means one's personal issues must be worse than those of people who don't write dark material.

Pretty much. Charron raps about throwing DNA's disabled mother into a swimming pool...damn, that kid has some serious issues and might want to see a psychologist.

Vince Gilligan has mental problems.

On the heels of the release of The Slim Shady LP, the most scathing backlash came from Timothy White, who at the time was the Editor-in-Chief of Billboard magazine. White felt that the violent and misogynistic content on the album was not only irresponsible on Shady's behalf, but also a destructive move on the label's (Aftermath/Interscope) part.

"If you seek to play a leadership role in making money by exploiting the world’s misery, the music industry remains an easy place to start."

Translation: I'm an idiot who thinks that music should somehow be sacred and free from any kind of negativity that we see on TV and in movies.

"My stupid criticisms are going to be multi'd in a sick verse on the next album."

[TheBoss123]

He was never universally praised, I dont understand where this notion is coming from, hes always recieved mixed reactions from critics as far as i can see. He may be leaning towards more positive or more negative but theyre always mixed. Critics opinions shouldnt even be relevant, when theyre rating lil wayne/kanye west albums higher than eminems first 3. Rapping is about fucking rapping, and eminem knows how to song write, Eminem is rapping his fucking ass off on MMLP2 and a lot of critics ignore that fact, and put the down the album for various reasons related to there personal taste or disdain for him. Critics are irrelevant these days, The masses love the new album, a few assholes on the internet, and some critics are the vocal minority. The people screaming eminem sucks are not the majority of people. Whats the purpose of a critic if theyre not going to look at something objectively. you can "not like" something and still give it a fair review, people just dont try too. Its annoying as shit that when i say my favorite rapper is eminem to people, they roll their eyes "oh cuz hes white" and point to some anonymous person saying he sucks, and saying that theyre the majority opinion. Id go as far as too argue that with most things, the loudest most obnoxious people are the minority. I have no anger towards any of you, this is just something thats always bothered me.

[EminemBase]

He was never universally praised, I dont understand where this notion is coming from, hes always recieved mixed reactions from critics as far as i can see. He may be leaning towards more positive or more negative but theyre always mixed. Critics opinions shouldnt even be relevant, when theyre rating lil wayne/kanye west albums higher than eminems first 3. Rapping is about fucking rapping, and eminem knows how to song write, Eminem is rapping his fucking ass off on MMLP2 and a lot of critics ignore that fact, and put the down the album for various reasons related to there personal taste or disdain for him. Critics are irrelevant these days, The masses love the new album, a few assholes on the internet, and some critics are the vocal minority. The people screaming eminem sucks are not the majority of people. Whats the purpose of a critic if theyre not going to look at something objectively. you can "not like" something and still give it a fair review, people just dont try too. Its annoying as shit that when i say my favorite rapper is eminem to people, they roll their eyes "oh cuz hes white" and point to some anonymous person saying he sucks, and saying that theyre the majority opinion. Id go as far as too argue that with most things, the loudest most obnoxious people are the minority. I have no anger towards any of you, this is just something thats always bothered me.

The critical reaction definitely hasn't been mixed.

SSLP, MMLP and TES all had near-universal acclaim.

Almost all top critics agreed/agree they were/are classics or at the very least that he's brilliant.

78/100 on Metacritic for MMLP for example... that's not mixed.

50 something is mixed.

[kkaniff]

@EminemBase
The top critics for MMLP:
Spin 60
Rolling Stone 80
NME (terrible) 90
The A.V Club 70
Slant 30
Vibe 100
The are the critics that are "top", not so much Vibe but...
Anyway, hardly the universal acclaim you're suggesting.
Oh, and if 78 isn't mixed, then MMLP2's 72 with 12 more reviews isn't either, so I don't see your point.

[TheBoss123]

Every once in a while I want to take critics seriously and think that they are more sensible than I accuse them of being...but then I remember it never changes.

http://www.xxlmag.com/rap-music/reviews ... um-review/

http://www.xxlmag.com/rap-music/reviews ... um-review/

They gave MMLP2 "lyrics" an XL, and MCHG's "lyrics" a XXL. To them, MCHG as an album has top of the line, classic level lyricism. Get the fuck out of here. If they were even rated the same I would still question that qualification, but to say that MCHG is lyrically better than MMLP2, and given the highest possible lyrical praise...is moronic.

You have to question critics at this point, i sat and listened through MCHG, it was very listenable, but it didnt feel like he was even trying. I guess i always had this expectation that critics should be above the average person, who we looked too for an honest objective opinion, maybe that was never the case and its my fault for looking at it that way. I dont see the purpose in the existence of critics who can look at MCHG say the lyrics were phenomenal when they were essentially dialed in, than a man who poured his art into it and essentially say theyre worse. All they do is serve to misguide people, i dont even understand how you can be a fan of rap and say MCHG is better lyrically than MMLP2.

@Embase
ok then that was my bad, i didnt understand the scoring system fully then.

It seems to me the critics who have a problem with eminem have been saying the same things they have always been.
I could very well be wrong though.

[PAINKILLƎR]

Every once in a while I want to take critics seriously and think that they are more sensible than I accuse them of being...but then I remember it never changes.

http://www.xxlmag.com/rap-music/reviews ... um-review/

http://www.xxlmag.com/rap-music/reviews ... um-review/

They gave MMLP2 "lyrics" an XL, and MCHG's "lyrics" a XXL. To them, MCHG as an album has top of the line, classic level lyricism. Get the fuck out of here. If they were even rated the same I would still question that qualification, but to say that MCHG is lyrically better than MMLP2, and given the highest possible lyrical praise...is moronic.

You have to question critics at this point, i sat and listened through MCHG, it was very listenable, but it didnt feel like he was even trying. I guess i always had this expectation that critics should be above the average person, who we looked too for an honest objective opinion, maybe that was never the case and its my fault for looking at it that way. I dont see the purpose in the existence of critics who can look at MCHG say the lyrics were phenomenal when they were essentially dialed in, than a man who poured his art into it and essentially say theyre worse. All they do is serve to misguide people, i dont even understand how you can be a fan of rap and say MCHG is better lyrically than MMLP2.

@Embase
ok then that was my bad, i didnt understand the scoring system fully then.

It seems to me the critics who have a problem with eminem have been saying the same things they have always been.
I could very well be wrong though.

[kkaniff]

^ Pretty much this.
The reviews from '01 are still posted on Metacritic/their respective sites.
There really is no need for this argument.
Great @SWA post, as usual.

[EminemBase]

@EminemBase
The top critics for MMLP:
Spin 60
Rolling Stone 80
NME (terrible) 90
The A.V Club 70
Slant 30
Vibe 100
The are the critics that are "top", not so much Vibe but...
Anyway, hardly the universal acclaim you're suggesting.
Oh, and if 78 isn't mixed, then MMLP2's 72 with 12 more reviews isn't either, so I don't see your point.

How is that mixed? That's overwhelmingly positive.

My point is that the initial reaction to his first three was not mixed at all, I remember it well - and critics aside, the general feeling and reaction among fans and anybody who liked music was VERY positive that these were brilliant and important albums.

XXL even gave MMLP a perfect XXL rating.

Em's classic shit got great reactions from hip-hop fans and hip-hop critics from the get-go.

MMLP2 has had a positive reaction, not on that level, but that's not mixed. That's positive.

[EminemBase]

The critical reaction definitely hasn't been mixed.

SSLP, MMLP and TES all had near-universal acclaim.

Almost all top critics agreed/agree they were/are classics or at the very least that he's brilliant.

78/100 on Metacritic for MMLP for example... that's not mixed.

50 something is mixed.

You were the first one to say that Metacritic not classifying something as universal doesn't mean it wasn't universal, but then you use their classification to defend that the reviews weren't "mixed".

Metacritic crap aside, I think he's using the term generally to imply there were a variety of opinions. Who cares what they call it. I don't care what their terms are the only reason it's brought up is to show a type of average score, and list all of the available reviews. You could say the majority of the reviews were positive, but I don't see that as the same as everyone agreeing it was a classic. The majority of MMLP2's reviews were positive as well.

Almost all top critics agreed/agree they were/are classics or at the very least that he's brilliant.

That's the point we're talking about. Most if not all agree they are classics now, no one is arguing the present tense opinion. Yes, his reception was positive. As it is now. But there was always a range of opinions upon the release.
MMLP
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/album ... p-20000706

4 out of 5

Then in 2004, they rerated it as a 5 out of 5, or a classic in hindsight

http://books.google.com/books?id=t9eocw ... &q&f=false

It wasn't given the "XXL" status until 2007 when they went back and re rated it, along with a bunch of other albums

Rolling stone also originally gave SSLP only 3 and a half stars, but years later re rated it.
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/album ... p-19990401

They spoke positively of him, but still said:

"The bitch bashing gets tired fast; the wife-killing jokes of "'97 Bonnie and Clyde" aren't any funnier than Garth Brooks', and "My Fault" belongs on some sorry-ass Bloodhound Gang record."

But now 97 Bonnie and Clyde is a "classic". Now MMLP is a "classic". How dare someone give it a 3.5 or 4/5.

Even after calling Eminem Show possibly the best rap/rock album ever, RS still gave him a 4 out of 5. Which I doubt you would call classic. Billboard gave it a 4/5, Vibe the same. So no, at the time they didn't all agree it was a classic. Unless your response is going to be that the ones I've listed don't match your description of "top critics".

A 3.5 out of 5, some 4/5s, an XL and so on aren't bad by any means, but we don't need to pretend like everyone thought his shit was instant classic back then. Some did. Some thought it was just okay. A bunch thought somewhere in between. But today if he gets anywhere from a 3.5 to 5 scatter of reviews, it's because his albums are very inconsistent in quality and they just "aren't classics".

When it's MMLP2 getting 4/5 Rolling Stone, XL, 4/5 HHDX or whatever...it's somehow is worse. His first 3 got the same damn scores from the same damn publications...until they were re rated later. It's a fact. I don't get what the problem is.

There is no problem. We're making pretty much the same points in different ways.

But the reactions were never mixed, even if everyone didn't agree they were instant classics - the overwhelming reaction and feeling from fans and the public and the music minds were that these were brilliant albums and that he was putting out top-notch shit; exact ratings and ''classic'' status aside.

And yes MMLP2 has had a good-great reaction. But it's not the same as MMLP reaction and I don't mean public outrage. To say it's been critically the same is just not true. You can add up a similar score but the general feeling, the general reaction is not that he made an extremely incredible album with landmark songs or something defining... something can get 4/5 for being brilliant for what it is... that doesn't make all brilliance the same. The feeling/reaction is not the same and that is what I am contesting.

[EminemBase]

Every once in a while I want to take critics seriously and think that they are more sensible than I accuse them of being...but then I remember it never changes.

http://www.xxlmag.com/rap-music/reviews ... um-review/

http://www.xxlmag.com/rap-music/reviews ... um-review/

They gave MMLP2 "lyrics" an XL, and MCHG's "lyrics" a XXL. To them, MCHG as an album has top of the line, classic level lyricism. Get the fuck out of here. If they were even rated the same I would still question that qualification, but to say that MCHG is lyrically better than MMLP2, and given the highest possible lyrical praise...is moronic.

You have to question critics at this point, i sat and listened through MCHG, it was very listenable, but it didnt feel like he was even trying. I guess i always had this expectation that critics should be above the average person, who we looked too for an honest objective opinion, maybe that was never the case and its my fault for looking at it that way. I dont see the purpose in the existence of critics who can look at MCHG say the lyrics were phenomenal when they were essentially dialed in, than a man who poured his art into it and essentially say theyre worse. All they do is serve to misguide people, i dont even understand how you can be a fan of rap and say MCHG is better lyrically than MMLP2.

@Embase
ok then that was my bad, i didnt understand the scoring system fully then.

It seems to me the critics who have a problem with eminem have been saying the same things they have always been.
I could very well be wrong though.

Holy shit - they gave Jay's modern lyrics XXL and MMLP lyrics XL? LOL.

MMLP lyricism is as good as it gets. Stupid fucks.

[yoda you can call me]

There is no problem. We're making pretty much the same points in different ways.

But the reactions were never mixed, even if everyone didn't agree they were instant classics - the overwhelming reaction and feeling from fans and the public and the music minds were that these were brilliant albums and that he was putting out top-notch shit; exact ratings and ''classic'' status aside.

And yes MMLP2 has had a good-great reaction. But it's not the same as MMLP reaction and I don't mean public outrage. To say it's been critically the same is just not true. You can add up a similar score but the general feeling, the general reaction is not that he made an extremely incredible album with landmark songs or something defining... something can get 4/5 for being brilliant for what it is... that doesn't make all brilliance the same. The feeling/reaction is not the same and that is what I am contesting.

I didn't mean public outrage on my previous post when i said "make the public go fucking mental". i was on about the public going wow to this new out of nowhere shit. the controversy did help him shift that many units though. he arrived in the perfect conditions to blow up the way he did back then. "came to the world when it was in need of a villian"..
But times have changed, people have been worn down from Em's discog after that album, Encore, Relapse and Recovery played a huge effect in Em losing that edge he had with the public.
now he's playing to a new internet generation, the landscape has changed and the people that went crazy in the first place are now grown up and moved on, except a few of us (me)
And like SWA said, it's suddenly cool to hate on Em these days, due to the internet.
This public reaction you're looking for, will never happen, let go mang

Oh and let's not forgot the amount of bandwagoners that naturally gravitated to him when he landed but soon jumped ship and flip flopped on him when his content started lacking..
And the MMLP was a once in a lifetime album, Em was a young angry dude and the MMLP was a reactionary album that was fueled by anger which was aimed in all directions. That struck a chord with a lot of us.
Now he's a 40 year old dude and the anger in him has greatly dissipated, he's still got that funny sense of humour ..
You're stuck in a timewarp from 2000 though

[EminemBase]

There is no problem. We're making pretty much the same points in different ways.

But the reactions were never mixed, even if everyone didn't agree they were instant classics - the overwhelming reaction and feeling from fans and the public and the music minds were that these were brilliant albums and that he was putting out top-notch shit; exact ratings and ''classic'' status aside.

And yes MMLP2 has had a good-great reaction. But it's not the same as MMLP reaction and I don't mean public outrage. To say it's been critically the same is just not true. You can add up a similar score but the general feeling, the general reaction is not that he made an extremely incredible album with landmark songs or something defining... something can get 4/5 for being brilliant for what it is... that doesn't make all brilliance the same. The feeling/reaction is not the same and that is what I am contesting.

I didn't mean public outrage on my previous post when i said "make the public go fucking mental". i was on about the public going wow to this new out of nowhere shit. the controversy did help him shift that many units though. he arrived in the perfect conditions to blow up the way he did back then. "came to the world when it was in need of a villian"..
But times have changed, people have been worn down from Em's discog after that album, Encore, Relapse and Recovery played a huge effect in Em losing that edge he had with the public.
now he's playing to a new internet generation, the landscape has changed and the people that went crazy in the first place are now grown up and moved on, except a few of us (me)
And like SWA said, it's suddenly cool to hate on Em these days, due to the internet.
This public reaction you're looking for, will never happen, let go mang

I'm not on about the public reaction though.

I'm on about a general feel of the quality and consistence of the music.

Forget what he's saying - because that's not important or relevant to the actual quality and consistence of how it's all put together. I just mean the consistence and standard of the music and what people thought of it was much higher... he still raps on amazing levels but to say MMLP2 reaction is like MMLP is just absurd, again, not like... with people being wow'd, I mean just in terms of how good people think it is.